BledDest's blog

By BledDest, 7 months ago, In English

I don't think comments like "you use X in model solution, author, are you an idiot?", "f**k you and your problems, they are shit" and such should be normal on Codeforces, especially when written by someone high-rated and/or respected in the community. I also don't think this kind of behavior should be normal towards regular users.

I know that sometimes contests can be frustrating. Sometimes it is the participant's fault, sometimes it is the problemsetter's fault, sometimes it just happens without anyone being guilty of that. And I understand that in some cases, the criticism the author receives is fair and well-deserved.

But there is a fine line between criticism, saying that you didn't like the problems, and hurling insults against the author. The former two are acceptable (and sometimes even needed, because authors have to improve and learn from their mistakes); the latter one, in my opinion, should not be acceptable.

It's not like we can ever get rid of offense and hatred completely; there will always be people who want to take it out on the community as a whole or someone specific. And if I created a blog for every time I saw an insult hurled towards me or some other member of the community, my account would already be banned for spamming. But I think that the comments like the one linked in the first paragraph are especially dangerous and need to be dealt with.

Codeforces community is biased towards people with high rating and people who do something for the website. And this is sometimes a good thing; but it can also make people think that if a high-rated participant and a problemsetter allows himself (or herself) to be rude and offensive, then it is acceptable, and they are allowed to do it as well. That's why cases like this one are especially bad.

We can never get rid of offense and hatred, but please don't make it something normal. Everyone should be responsible for what they are saying or writing, but if your word has some weight in the community, then it also means some additional responsibility for you. Please don't make people think that insulting the author (or anyone else, for that matter!) is perfectly reasonable and fine — I doubt you will like the results of that.

UPD: It looks like the focus of the comment section has shifted towards discussing how to give constructive feedback to the problemsetters. This is certainly one of the points of the blog, but the main thing I wanted to state was that insults against anyone should not be acceptable. It's just that the problemsetters usually get the most of the hatred on CF, so it's much easier to find the examples of that. But this behavior towards regular users should not be allowed either.

UPD2: Initially, there was a link to the comment which caused me to write this whole blog (a comment by a high-rated user and a problemsetter when he openly called another problemsetter retarded because of some details of the solution). I wanted to show it as a clear example, but it was not the right thing to do.

To the person whose comment I used as an example (if you're reading this): I apologize, I shouldn't have made it seem like you're the culprit, and I didn't understand the consequences of my blog fully. I know that you have openly admitted your mistake, and I admire you for that. If the fact that I've used you as an example made you feel awful, or made some other people call you out — I am terribly sorry.

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7 months ago, # |
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I agree, the number of ? offends me too.

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7 months ago, # |
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I think this comment may be a joke; even if it is not, it makes sense. Like dude is really shocked by the fact that bitset is an intended solution. I am shocked as well. That is pretty natural, I guess. Who did he even insult? Do you really believe that authors are offended? This blog seems more useless than the comment it refers to(I also consider this blog a harmful attempt to push the idea of "comments that authors don't like should be removed")

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    7 months ago, # ^ |
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    The current version of the comment is fine. I am talking about the original version. Phrases like "are you retarded?", in my opinion, are not ok when discussing problems and issues with them.

    UPD: I don't want to push the idea "authors should be able to ignore and delete any negative feedback". I, as an author myself, improved a lot after reading criticism and negative feedback on my own problems. The idea of this blog is "people shouldn't hurl insults on CF because someone simply did something they dislike".

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      7 months ago, # ^ |
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      My apologies,I did not see the first version of the comment. No everything makes more sense. I am still not sure whether it is that bad, however it is just the question of opinion on a much more general topic which I don't want to engage in. I take my words back, your blog makes sense and is much more reasonable then the first version of that comment

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      7 months ago, # ^ |
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      Are you sure you're actually taking feedback? Last I check edu rounds are still same problem style, and still don't have testers. Also, it seems you post blogs like this frequently because you don't like to be given feedback, I remember you posted a moderation blog like this a few months ago.

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        7 months ago, # ^ |
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        Not having testers is a completely valid point. Unfortunately, right now it is impossible to have a testing phase because the schedule is too tight. Hopefully I can arrange a less overloaded schedule when I renew my contract.

        Concerning the issues with problem style — it changes. There was a period of time when my rounds consisted just only of classical implementation problems. There was a period of time when my rounds were overloaded with ad-hocs to the point that four of the first problems didn't contain any algorithms. Nowadays, I try to do a mixture of both. I try to make sure that problems contain both standard algorithms and observation/thinking. It doesn't always work, but the situation is way more balanced than it was two or three years ago. If you have any legitimate claims why my style is bad and needs to be changed, and how exactly it has to change, you can always speak up. But keep in mind that nobody's problem style can appeal to everyone.

        About previous blogs — why don't you actually read the blog you're talking about and see that your point is completely invalid? The topic of that blog has nothing to do with contest feedback. Sorry, but it looks like you just made it up to make it seem that you have a legitimate claim.

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    7 months ago, # ^ |
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    I agree with you.

    We shouldn't be too serious on such communication.

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7 months ago, # |
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Agreed. Criticism that let setter improve is a good thing, but the least one can do is to show them respect for their hardwork. I know it is an old blog, but I want people to atleast give this blog a read to understand difference between constructive criticism and hateful comment.

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7 months ago, # |
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I support this text. I agree that rude or unrestrained comments harm the community and problem writers. I believe that such a tone is unacceptable. This is not okay. Unfortunately, we cannot keep track of all toxic or rude comments (please use the complaint system) for now, but we are trying to rectify the situation. To draw attention to this problem, I place this text on the main page.

P.S. Recently, I was fortunate enough to interact in an online community with zero toxicity. It is considered unacceptable and wrong there. People are immediately called out for such behavior. You know, I really enjoyed it. It's like a whole new level of comfort and pleasure being in such an environment!

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    7 months ago, # ^ |
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    Okay, but you don't take into consideration the frustration of contestants over bad quality problems.

    Especially when it's kind of obvious that nothing will be done if they say this problem is shit because of reasons A, B, and C.

    That kind of makes sense for such toxicity. I am not saying the guy in the comment is correct he's obviously way out of line.

    But you're kind of solving the problem from only one side, don't you think?

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      7 months ago, # ^ |
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      If it's obvious to someone that nothing will be improved and authors will continue to give bad problems (I disagree with that, but let's imagine it's actually true), then why taking part in contests? You know that they will keep giving low-quality problems, why make yourself frustrated on purpose and then bring that frustration to other people?

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        7 months ago, # ^ |
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        I don't, that's the thing I actually stopped because it was frustrating but as you kind of noticed CF is the biggest CP platform out there.

        Everyone's circle is actually here ofc I would love for problems to get better instead of me leaving the platform because I enjoy the actual thing.

        I actually love your problems a lot of them were really good but still this is just my opinion problems are getting worse but then again I highly doubt anyone would actually take this as constructive criticism and would just think I am whining.

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          7 months ago, # ^ |
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          Nobody would take your comment as constructive criticism since it is not constructive criticism. You have not provided any points to be improved on and keep saying that the problem quality is getting worse but have not mentioned in what way.

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      7 months ago, # ^ |
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      The original post says that the problems may not be perfect and constructive criticism is welcome. But no one will ever create problems better because you insulted the problems or their creator.

      It's like in an online game telling a person that he plays badly and insulting him. At best, he'll just mute you. In the worst case, both of you will quarrel. It won't make him play better obviously.

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    7 months ago, # ^ |
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    Thank you! I know keeping an online community safe from hatred is a very difficult task (I had the experience of moderating a game forum, although it was much smaller than Codeforces, so it was a lot easier). I am very grateful towards all the Codeforces staff for helping users feel comfortable.

    However, the moderation team can do the job only partially. Deleting insulting blogs and comments is a way to rectify the situation. But in order to make those types of comments appear less frequently, we as a community have to do our part too. If we don't give newcomers a good example about how this community works, what is allowed and what is not, we can't expect them to behave politely.

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    7 months ago, # ^ |
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    It starts with you, Mike. If you want to set the tone, posting this blog on the front page is not enough. You need to have clear community guidelines and suspend or ban anyone who violates those guidelines, whether they're grey or red.

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7 months ago, # |
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What about this comment

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7 months ago, # |
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I recently saw a blog where a man was insulting another country and other man was asked to be banned him. I got quite a bit of negative feedback for supporting this. How correct is this? I'm just against other negative things (like some people being mean to each other) in academic fields. If the whole world is hostile to each other, even in education, then we will just have a mindless and perishing planet.

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Out of curiosity: would you consider starting a text with "This problem is shit" and then listing the reasons why you think the problem is shit as unacceptable?

As a side note I agree that attacking the setters like that is out of bounds.

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    7 months ago, # ^ |
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    It's debatable, but I think that this should not be acceptable. Why not use something like "The problem is bad and should not have appeared in the contest because of 1) 2) 3)"?

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Nah common SomethingNew W
Dont be mad cmon this aint twitter
See u at IOI discord mod, ah nvm

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Seems now we want cf mods, what happened to free speech?

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yeah i really hate it when the impostor is suspicious

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7 months ago, # |
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Setting the main point of this discussion aside — of all the things in the world, the thing that sparked that comment in question was a fact that the model solution used bitsets xD?

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7 months ago, # |
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The author of the comment having a K!on profile picture explains why they authored that comment

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    7 months ago, # ^ |
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    Sorry, but your profile picture is even from hiten, an adult comic author, so does this also "explains why they authored that comment"?

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      7 months ago, # ^ |
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      Yes, I believe ones profile pictures says alot about them.

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Imagine being so soft that you write a blog with more than 5 paragraphs to berate a cute anime girl calling someone retarded

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We need more sound like this,sonmetimes we didn't notice the danger when it happened,but it's late when explanding.

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Absolutely true.

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we should strive to be respectful to each other as much as possible.

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I wholeheartedly agree with your sentiments. Respectful communication and constructive criticism are essential for fostering a healthy and supportive community.

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Agree, as I can see, Codeforces is the best tool to practice and competitive my self, hope Codeforces's community growing stronger and stronger.

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7 months ago, # |
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who asked?

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7 months ago, # |
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Why do you think that asking someone if he's retarded is offensive?

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This in fact shows that Codeforces administrators don't have any effective measures towards this kind of behavior.

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    7 months ago, # ^ |
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    It sounds like "Please don't insult problem writers please! Although your comment will be kept and you will be upvoted by a bunch of contestants, on the behalf of Codeforces administrator, please don't do that, I beg you!"

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I know you want to make the discussion environment at codeforces better. But the way of post someone's comment and let others attack it just make the things worse.

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I agree with you!

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7 months ago, # |
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I want to mention that he did apologize for his original comment and agreed it was emotional. While I agree the original comment was toxic, I do think the person just made a mistake or else they wouldn't have apologized in the first place. It is disappointing however to see others who would seriously believe their insults, rather than being from a place of emotionality.

https://mirror.codeforces.com/blog/entry/118540?#comment-1053467

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7 months ago, # |
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we should strive to be respectful to each other as much as possible.

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7 months ago, # |
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Why are you trying to convince us what is normal and what is not? There has always been toxicity. Everyone knows examples even from the top 10. Fixing this is too difficult and unnecessary. I think the authors are looking at the majority opinion (contribution), not individual comments. Really, are there people who will be offended by such a funny comment?

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    7 months ago, # ^ |
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    There has always been toxicity and there will always be. But this doesn't mean we should encourage and spread it. The current level of it is higher than it was about 5 years ago, and this is a trend that concerns me.

    > Really, are there people who will be offended by such a funny comment?

    Yes. Me, for example.

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      7 months ago, # ^ |
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      "The current level of it is higher than it was about 5 years ago, and this is a trend that concerns me."

      No shit. More users are joining the platform, what do you expect?

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      7 months ago, # ^ |
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      just dont get offended smh
      what about it is so difficult for u?

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    7 months ago, # ^ |
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    Everyone knows examples even from the top 10.

    I know only one example, not in top 10 right now. Sadly, I suspect that this (in my opinion) outlier may be the reason for more harsh comments in the community, as described below.

    Showing your opinion or behavior (hatred or general respect in a conversation) promotes the same in community, especially if you are highly regarded in this community (which is the case for high rated accounts). For that reason, I think that even if your opinion is harsh, as a grown up you should be able to express it politely, especially if you are doing it in public and your opinion is highly regarded. This is even more important here, because this website is visited by a lot of young people.

    Offending problems is bad behavior, which is considered normal. Offending specific person, such as author, is much worse, and this is not considered normal here, and I hope will never be. Offending (calling someone a retard) and criticizing (mentioning bitset in a solution) are different things.

    Scientific community in my opinion looks like a good behavioural example, respectable authors are very careful with their words. Codeforces to me is more down to earth and informal, but very valuable scientific community. I sometimes see trash talk from Radewoosh (friendly guy), but I can't remember examples when it is towards a non-friend of his and strongly offensive (such as calling someone a retard, or wishing death).

    I see a couple of clear examples of behavior inheritance. If that outlier didn't express his opinion so strongly, some (now highly rated) people wouldn't pick up his role model, and most likely the original offensive comment wouldn't exist. So I think it is indeed very much possible to promote hatred and toxicity, but perhaps harder to undo this effect.

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      7 months ago, # ^ |
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      I know only one example, not in top 10 right now.

      Is he in the top 2 contributors right now? :Clueless:

      Also the first 3 paragraphs of this wall of text may become a good copypasta for problemsetters to battle any form of criticism. Someone is unhappy with a problem that you've prepared for the round? Just hit them with a classic:

      I don't think comments like this one should be normal on Codeforces. I know that sometimes contests can be frustrating. Sometimes it is the participant's fault, sometimes it is the problemsetter's fault, sometimes it just happens without anyone being guilty of that. And I understand that in some cases, the criticism the author receives is fair and well-deserved. But there is a fine line between criticism, saying that you didn't like the problems, and hurling insults against the author. The former two are acceptable (and sometimes even needed, because authors have to improve and learn from their mistakes); the latter one, in my opinion, should not be acceptable.

      After seeing this all complainers are going to be in shambles.

      But seriously though, all it takes is just being a little bit more kind to other people (except for weebs, screw them).

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      7 months ago, # ^ |
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      I read this comment and immediately realized Um_nik is not in top10 right now

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      If you accusing someone, have a courage to do it directly!

      I don't want euphemisms to get normalized.

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        7 months ago, # ^ |
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        Gee, I wonder how did that get there

        Not actually hating on Um_nik or anything, every one of us likes to be a silly bean once in a while (I prefer to be silly most of the time)

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      7 months ago, # ^ |
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      I don't think scientific community is a good example... Everything I've seen or heard points towards an unbelievable amount of toxicity. And in some communities which are close to scientific communities in the latent space, the toxicity is so much that it makes kids screaming about how they're going to kill you in voice chat seem like a birthday party.

      I would much rather have someone just tell me I'm retarded for doing X instead of lying, stealing credit, impersonating, all while acting friendly, which I have all seen in scientific-adjacent communities.

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    7 months ago, # ^ |
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    lmao at you for thinking hurling slurs is funny.

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    7 months ago, # ^ |
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    I agree with Ormlis on this matter. Bledest seems to have blown things out of proportion unnecessarily. I also kinda think Bledest has an ego problem, being fixated on one person's opinion isn't gonna take him very far.

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I am agree with you. I do not think our community should be filled with such tongue. I hope everyone can discuss calmly instead of using malicious language.

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I agree with you

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this is like r/gharkekalesh

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Let's be polite and kind to the writers and testers, they are doing this for almost voluntarily and keep going this CodeForces contests alive.

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so many upvotes!!

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Reading comments ..
drawing

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There are a lot of people like that in real life. It's a matter of personal upbringing. If meet someone like that, just vote against them.

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I don't want this to be normalized

himself (or herself)

Please, use themself instead of other pronouns, I think it might make they (round author) feel awful. I really care about non-binary people and I don't want to live in a world with stereotypes that there are only two genders.

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I have seen that people who have Pupil or Newbie rank. When they comment about something, approximately 80% all of comments will be downvoted, even though they don’t comment everything badly.

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is this the most upvoted blog ever?

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I agree with your opinions. Besides Codeforces,there are a lot of websites with this problem and only if we get together can make it possible to get rid of offense and hatred. It's everyone's duty and I will try my best to do it.

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I agree. These words are offensive and they can't help anyone. They should disappear on the whole internet.

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Lmao contribution milker

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7 months ago, # |
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CF really has become a "Can't Take a Joke" type of Moderation. It used to be a lot of enjoyable place than the present.