ChaosAngel's blog

Thoughts on Div4
By ChaosAngel, history, 5 years ago, In English

When my friends first told me that there was going to be a div4 in a few days, I laughed it off and told them to get real. Presto chango, here we have a div 4!

I have mixed feelings about this frankly. Yes, the demand is rising, and we have a massive amount of registrants. However this could be in large part due to the recent pandemic, and not a permanent fixture.

This could have positive effects for the community, in terms of having a lower entrance barrier for newbies and less skilled programmers, and a softer introduction to the world of competitive programming. The website can establish itself as a larger presence in the algorithmic programming world.

At the same time, is that the fundamental character of this site?? Codeforces is known for offering a more ad-hoc, difficult problem set that is more suitable for ICPC, IOI, GCJ, Hackercup participants than your classic job interview website (Leetcode). Expanded focus on the lower divisions might serve to diminish the focus on the higher rounds and participants; it can be argued, allocating problem-setters and system resources differently.

This is not to mention the issue of the rating inflation; I think we are witnessing an upwards pressure on ratings these days due to increased participation by less well-versed members. Perhaps it is time to consider some mechanisms to equalize this??

Yes, we have the opportunity to expand our community and scope by making easier rounds for larger numbers of people. And yes, we risk losing our fundamental reputation as a site that caters to the best of the best.

That, and div1 people barely get any contests anyways.

Thoughts? I'd like to know if there are many with mixed feelings.

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  • Vote: I do not like it

Comments Comments (68)
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5 years ago, # |
  Vote: I like it +204 Vote: I do not like it

Div4 was a mistake

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    5 years ago, # ^ |
      Vote: I like it +95 Vote: I do not like it

    is

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      5 years ago, # ^ |
        Vote: I like it +76 Vote: I do not like it

      is

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        5 years ago, # ^ |
          Vote: I like it -169 Vote: I do not like it
        Spoiler
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    5 years ago, # ^ |
      Vote: I like it +6 Vote: I do not like it

    It can be converted into a good decision by having a lower bound on div 2 participation.

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    5 years ago, # ^ |
      Vote: I like it 0 Vote: I do not like it

    How so? In my opinion it was great, instead of solving the usual two problems that I solve in most Div 2. contests, I managed to solve 4 problems. It was more fun, and I felt like I had a chance to score high on the leaderboard, which encouraged me to solve faster and try my best.

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5 years ago, # |
  Vote: I like it +17 Vote: I do not like it

indeed I have mixed feelings too!

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5 years ago, # |
  Vote: I like it +60 Vote: I do not like it

As long as Div2/Div1 contest frequency is not affected I think it's a good idea for beginners

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5 years ago, # |
  Vote: I like it +298 Vote: I do not like it

At this rate, Um_nik will be worth more than 100 cyans

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5 years ago, # |
  Vote: I like it +33 Vote: I do not like it

What about Div 1.5??

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5 years ago, # |
  Vote: I like it +23 Vote: I do not like it

Honestly I do not want to give div 4. It just makes me look more pathetic. Here I am striving to get past C. But undeniably I still suck at solving Bs few days..(every 2 contests out of 5 contests on average it seems..)

But It would be a lie to deny this too that I want to make it past 1400 and thus I will be giving the contest. (I think many other below 1400 guys have same thoughts too)

For me if div 4 is a thing (which will probably be rarer than div 3 for obvious reasons) I would give them as long as I am below 1400.

So in conclusion: 1. Do I want div 4 rounds (well NO) 2. But who wouldn't want to take advantage if there exists one..

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5 years ago, # |
  Vote: I like it +18 Vote: I do not like it

Maybe we can share our feelings after the first Div.4 contest.

It's still an experiment. Let's see.

I think it would be great if there are something new for div.4.

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5 years ago, # |
  Vote: I like it +123 Vote: I do not like it
The truth about Div. 4
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5 years ago, # |
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If Div2 is too hard then let them participate in only div 4 contests. No other contests for them.

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    5 years ago, # ^ |
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    Do you know this recommendation of yours is going to affect you too?(If it was to happen)

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      5 years ago, # ^ |
        Vote: I like it 0 Vote: I do not like it

      Yes, true that. I meant that those who are below 1400, let them only participate in div4 so the load will be less on server in div 2 rounds. I know I will be in div4 after next contest. But others who have higher rating than you and me shall gain something. We div4 lads can do virtual contests later if we wish to solve. I didn't mean anything bad.

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        5 years ago, # ^ |
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        I wouldn't mind that provided us below 1400 would be allowed to do virtuals on the newly introduced lower bound div 2s. (Otherwise its meaningless)

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5 years ago, # |
← Rev. 2   Vote: I like it +22 Vote: I do not like it

if div4 will be in common to all contest queue — It s OK.

But we all know, that it will be false.. And it is quite strange — there are many div12 contests in queue, i think, but.. div4 ruined it as well, so div12 contests will be really rarely...

CF is going to be platform for beginners and it s really sad :(

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    5 years ago, # ^ |
      Vote: I like it +63 Vote: I do not like it

    I think that coordinators for div1-2 and div3-4 are disjoint, so there shouldn't be a big effect.

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      5 years ago, # ^ |
        Vote: I like it +50 Vote: I do not like it

      Yes, I'm pretty sure no reason to affect divs 1-2. Actually, div3 rounds don't have a coordinator. vovuh combines roles of problem developer/writer and coordinator + we have great regular testers.

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      5 years ago, # ^ |
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      True, as mentioned in some previous discussions as well that problem setters generally like to set harder problems more suitable for div1 rounds ,so div 4 wouldn't effect div 1-2 rounds but there would certainly be a decrease in div 3 rounds.

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5 years ago, # |
  Vote: I like it +15 Vote: I do not like it
  • My honest opinion is instead of making div4 rounds rated why not make the rounds like AtCoder DP contest? For sure it will be helpful for greens like me.
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    5 years ago, # ^ |
    ← Rev. 2   Vote: I like it +7 Vote: I do not like it

    Not just greens, that would help a lot of people.

    I too feel I'm not good at dp and would love to see such a contest here

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5 years ago, # |
  Vote: I like it -71 Vote: I do not like it

div 4 will save the india and bangali from the horrendous gray/green zone..... all hail div4 for india superpower 2020!!

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5 years ago, # |
← Rev. 2   Vote: I like it +30 Vote: I do not like it

Now with Div. 4:

$$$<$$$ 1400 rating: Div2,3,4

1400-1599 rating: Div2,3

1600-1899 rating: Div2

1900-2099 rating: Div1,2

$$$>$$$ 2099 rating: Div1

I hope this changes. <1400 rating and new accounts shouldn't be allowed in Div2, otherwise there is just no purpose of Div. 4. Also now Div. 3 seems quite redundant.

Div. 3 was supposed to be easy. But even at my rating (Div 3 is supposed to be uninteresting for Experts and above), I really have to think hard about Div. 3 D and E problems in many contests, and F is usually too hard for me. Sometimes Div. 3 is well prepared, so D and E are not so hard.

In my opinion, if Div. 4 is here to stay, then Div. 2 should be restricted to >=1400 rating only (and no new accounts in Div. 2). There should be at least one Div3 or 4 round every week.

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    5 years ago, # ^ |
    ← Rev. 2   Vote: I like it -8 Vote: I do not like it

    That doesn't make any sense. The point of lower divisions is to provide easier problems for beginners but not skew the rating for the better solvers. It doesn't make sense to restrict new people from competing in Div 2. It doesn't make anyone's experience better.

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5 years ago, # |
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Also I see many people infiltrating the system by making new Id's making the contest unfair.

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5 years ago, # |
  Vote: I like it +10 Vote: I do not like it

I don't like it :(

I want to earn my way to solving 1600-1700 rated Div-2/Div-3 problems sometime in future. I want it the hard way. Another lower division just defeats the purpose.

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5 years ago, # |
  Vote: I like it +79 Vote: I do not like it

I think a division should basically represent a large skill range and I think the difference between a specialist and an expert is not that much to create an entirely new division.

This goes both ways, my and tourist's skills are worlds apart, yet we compete in the same division and I don't want that either.

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    5 years ago, # ^ |
      Vote: I like it +3 Vote: I do not like it

    Yeah I too feel like the transition from specialist to expert is kind of very smooth. But transition from Expert to CM and from CM to Master feels very rough.

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5 years ago, # |
  Vote: I like it -18 Vote: I do not like it

I think people who have a very high rating(like International Master or higher) shouldn't be allowed to participate in Div.4 rounds even it's unrated for them, or Newbies and Pupils will need to spend a long time to see their results of their programmes.

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5 years ago, # |
  Vote: I like it +30 Vote: I do not like it

In few days we'll be having Div 5,6,7,8 too.

Div 5 level= Check palindrome, etc(Target: grey)

Div 6 level= Print hello world (Target:Lower grey)

Div 7 level= Just input a number and don't do anything.(Target: white)

Div 8 level= Just register for contest to get free rating(Target: Whitest Whites)

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5 years ago, # |
  Vote: I like it +21 Vote: I do not like it

Looks like 2020 is a bad year for everything.

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5 years ago, # |
  Vote: I like it 0 Vote: I do not like it

Look at the contests site. I think holding div2&div1 contests too frequently is not friendly for beginners too.

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5 years ago, # |
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I have good chance to create my own contests as I have alot of beginner problem ideas.

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5 years ago, # |
  Vote: I like it +15 Vote: I do not like it

I think it's really nice to have a Div4.

I have some friends who never had interest in competitive programming but love to compete at things. With Div4 I can show them Codeforces and they can start right away.

We wouldn't need it if Div3 was easy enough though. I think Div3 problems are often too hard. I don't feel a really big difference when im doing Div3 or Div2. Usually I can't do D,E nor F in neither of them. It'll be really nice if I can have a contest where I'll be able to solve most problems.

Also, it's a experiment. I don't see why we shouldn't try. I'm looking forward to have a great time at this contest. Hope u guys have too.

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5 years ago, # |
  Vote: I like it +20 Vote: I do not like it

Div 4 is definitely a bad idea. Programmers who are uncomfortable even with the level of Div 3, should be forced to focus on Div 3 questions, rather than making it easier for them by introducing Div 4.

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    5 years ago, # ^ |
      Vote: I like it 0 Vote: I do not like it

    "Programmers who are uncomfortable even with the level of Div 3" You make it seem like Div 3 is incredibly easy, which isn't the case. Actually, most of purple coders struggle to fc div3, and even for some yellow guys it isn't that easy to solve all problems on time. Now imagine that for people that started (competitive) programming in a few weeks, or even days.

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5 years ago, # |
  Vote: I like it +3 Vote: I do not like it

finally some worthy opponents

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5 years ago, # |
  Vote: I like it +3 Vote: I do not like it

It'll really help beginners.

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5 years ago, # |
  Vote: I like it +45 Vote: I do not like it

I have thought Div. 4 is totally needless because I thought Div. 3 is easy enough so participants fail in Div. 3 should just practice Div. 3 hard. But after I read some posts from users and users, I'm now holding the opposite idea.

Codeforces holds contests, but not only hold contests. We compete, we win, we lose, but we are veterans, we have get used to this. We enjoy this because most of time we are dedicated in the problem set in the 2-hour or 2.5-hour span. Nobody will enjoy a contest when he/she find the first 2 problems can be done in 10 minutes and that's all. Contests do not judge people, they also entertain people and encourage people.

According to my feeling, for a problem set containing 6 problems, I'll enjoy most if I can solve 4 or 5 problems and keep working until the last time. I believe we have the same feeling — many red users compete in Div. 2 but Div. 3 red participants are significantly less. Boring for solving 2 problems, interesting for solving 4 problems, boring for solving all problems — this just infers the gaps between divisions should be about 2 problems, i.e., (2 problems in Div. 1) ~ (4 problems in Div. 2) ~ (6 problems in Div. 3).

So, is Div. 4 necessary? I've checked scoreboards of recent Div. 3 contests, and usually about 1/3 of all participants solved 2 problems or less. So if we add 2 easier problems in Div. 4, obviously for them, and new comers during the difficult time, giving the contest can be more interesting, and there's no doubt that Div. 4 can attract many participants.

I guess there can be several regular problems, like simple problems in AtCoder Beginner Contest A/B/C, algorithmic problems like LeetCode Weekly, or some implementation problems which require some speed. Also several ad hoc problems will be set. Maybe they can be less interesting (maybe bad, in some users' view), but maybe real competitors don't think so.

I don't think 1400 is far away from 1600, and the contests are usually not prepared for the strongest participants in the division, so I regard Div. 4 as the contests for users whose rating is around 1200, for whom any existing contest can be boring. Unfortunately, the target users are usually absent for discussion, this post can be a good example — blue and purple users are discussing the future of greens and greys.

As a member in the community, I try to understand the feeling and need of others. So I come to this conclusion.

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    5 years ago, # ^ |
      Vote: I like it +3 Vote: I do not like it

    Thank you for taking the time to think about others, and I would like to confirm after finishing from the Div 4. contest and solving 4 problems that it was very fun.

    Usually, when I participate in Div 2. contests, I can only solve two problems. Despite this, I come back every contest because I'm trying my best to improve my skills. With Div 4. contests I can work on quick thinking and implementation, and developing other skills more easily and in a more entertaining manner.

    In conclusion, I think Div 4. contests are great practice and I hope they stick around indefinitely.

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5 years ago, # |
  Vote: I like it +47 Vote: I do not like it

Conspiracy theory: since not that many users participated in the testing round (~5000 compared to ~14000 in Round #639), Mike decided to rebrand it as Div. 4 in order to attract more users to participate and test the system under a higher load (~17000 participants this round!).

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5 years ago, # |
  Vote: I like it +5 Vote: I do not like it

After the div4 1st round, I had a rank change from 1394 to 1447. Even though the round was great and everything, as a beginner, I want to earn my way to the top, and not get a jump like this.

Honestly, if there was never this div4, I would have taken another 4-5 challenges to reach to this level, which I feel would have been more fairer.

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