antidisestablishment's blog

Why more and more Div4?
By antidisestablishment, history, 3 years ago, In English

Well, it is meaningless

  • Vote: I like it
  • +132
  • Vote: I do not like it

Comments Comments (78)
| Write comment?
»
3 years ago, # |
← Rev. 3   Vote: I like it -68 Vote: I do not like it

At least meaningful for me.

→ Reply
  • »
    »
    3 years ago, # ^ |
      Vote: I like it +108 Vote: I do not like it

    Meaningful as in gaining rating? Or as in learning new concepts? I feel like div 4s do not provide any interesting concepts that could help newbies/pupils unlike div 3s. Like solving problems with rating under 1300 wouldn't get you far as they are just simple observation greedy problems, and we already get enough of them from div 3s and the first three problems of div 2s, so having more div 4s would be somewhat redundant in terms of training/learning, but that's just my opinion ¯_(ツ)_/¯.

    → Reply
  • »
    »
    3 years ago, # ^ |
      Vote: I like it -18 Vote: I do not like it

    for what? for gaining some meaningless rating?

    → Reply
    • »
      »
      »
      3 years ago, # ^ |
        Vote: I like it -11 Vote: I do not like it

      I think you misunderstood me...

      I mean those who have lower ratings are more possible to solve a meaningful problem for them in div.4 because now all of those problems have difficulties under 1400...

      → Reply
»
3 years ago, # |
  Vote: I like it -119 Vote: I do not like it

maybe its meaningless to you,but significant to me

→ Reply
  • »
    »
    3 years ago, # ^ |
      Vote: I like it +189 Vote: I do not like it

    i think cf should made more good div.1/2 instead div4, and for beginners, div3's difficulty is suitable.

    → Reply
    • »
      »
      »
      3 years ago, # ^ |
      ← Rev. 3   Vote: I like it -94 Vote: I do not like it

      deleted.

      → Reply
      • »
        »
        »
        »
        3 years ago, # ^ |
          Vote: I like it +84 Vote: I do not like it

        Although the queue is almost empty,the problems are good enough for learners

        → Reply
    • »
      »
      »
      3 years ago, # ^ |
      ← Rev. 3   Vote: I like it +164 Vote: I do not like it

      i think cf should made more good div.1/2 instead div4

      For the record, Mike himself has stated that the rate of Div 1s and 2s have nothing to do with the rate of Div 4s (they're literally made by different people!). Quote:

      I'd like to repeat: Div. 3 and Div. 4 rounds doesn't affect the rate of Div. 1 and Div. 2 rounds. The coordinators focus only on Div. 1 and Div. 2 rounds. All Div3 (and future, if any, Div4) rounds are prepared without any help from the coordinators.

      The implication is that just because there's no Div 4, doesn't mean there will magically be a Div 1 or 2. It's more likely there would just be no contest.

      → Reply
      • »
        »
        »
        »
        3 years ago, # ^ |
          Vote: I like it -23 Vote: I do not like it

        Then who coordinates div4s? Or do authors just submit any random easy problems and it's good to go?

        → Reply
      • »
        »
        »
        »
        3 years ago, # ^ |
          Vote: I like it -48 Vote: I do not like it

        but div4's problems is too boring, and i think there at least be a hard problem.

        Nowadays, Div4 is meaningless, it is only about your speed, it make some people get the rating which beyond his strength.

        → Reply
        • »
          »
          »
          »
          »
          3 years ago, # ^ |
            Vote: I like it +44 Vote: I do not like it

          I never disagreed with you, I'm just saying that we should base arguments on true facts. It's a misconception that the rate of Div 4s affect the rate of Div 1/2s.

          → Reply
    • »
      »
      »
      2 years ago, # ^ |
      ← Rev. 2   Vote: I like it 0 Vote: I do not like it

      So you want to have more contests in which you can participate by taking away contests, in which a lot of newbies and pupils can participate, right?

      → Reply
»
3 years ago, # |
← Rev. 2   Vote: I like it +45 Vote: I do not like it

I'm with you on this one. There is no need for div 4 as div 3 was enough for absolute beginners. and div 4 is just the fastest finger first competition. And in my opinion, it would dishearten a lot of good programmers because they are good at pushing their limits in contests to solve more difficult problems and are not just typing masters.

Div 4 is good but doesn't feel like a codeforces round. It feels different from all other contests.

→ Reply
  • »
    »
    3 years ago, # ^ |
      Vote: I like it +1 Vote: I do not like it

    Just a suggestion

    Spoiler
    → Reply
»
3 years ago, # |
  Vote: I like it +20 Vote: I do not like it

I usually can't solve a single problem on divs 1 through 3, but managed to solve problem A of the most recent div 4. Solving a problem on any contest really motivates beginners like myself when compared to getting a 0, and I'm finally able to have a proper rating.

→ Reply
»
3 years ago, # |
  Vote: I like it -47 Vote: I do not like it

well for people like you its meaningless. But as far as systematically learning for newbies it is very very essential. so if you don't have anything productive to say then keep your opinion with yourself. Don't write unnecessary blogs.

→ Reply
  • »
    »
    3 years ago, # ^ |
      Vote: I like it +6 Vote: I do not like it

    i think for everyone is meaningless. div4 only can take u some unreal rating

    → Reply
    • »
      »
      »
      2 years ago, # ^ |
        Vote: I like it +13 Vote: I do not like it

      What is the difference between div3 and div4 that makes div3 give real rating and makes div4 give unreal rating?

      → Reply
»
3 years ago, # |
  Vote: I like it 0 Vote: I do not like it

Number of (newbies+pupils) is very large and as a result solving more problem in a single contest will boost their confidence. If it doesn't change the rate of div 1,2 then it is good.

→ Reply
  • »
    »
    3 years ago, # ^ |
      Vote: I like it +48 Vote: I do not like it

    cf rating's function is reflecting your real ability, but not to gaining your confidence

    → Reply
    • »
      »
      »
      3 years ago, # ^ |
        Vote: I like it +45 Vote: I do not like it

      But is there not perhaps something to be gained by giving the very many people in that rating bracket the opportunity to solve more than just problems A and B in a contest? The reality is that a Div 2 contest will usually have an 800, maybe a 1000-1100, then perhaps something 1500+ as problem C. In Global Rounds usually half the problems are inaccessible to people below GM.

      Div 4 provides a platform for people in the lower brackets to solve multiple problems in the region of 1200 to 1500 in a contest environment. I think if it has been confirmed that there is no impact on the number of Div 1 and Div 2 contests then there can be no possible reason to complain about allowing people the chance to do that — it has no material impact on someone of a high rating.

      → Reply
      • »
        »
        »
        »
        3 years ago, # ^ |
          Vote: I like it -23 Vote: I do not like it

        But it made cf rating more unreal

        → Reply
        • »
          »
          »
          »
          »
          3 years ago, # ^ |
            Vote: I like it -26 Vote: I do not like it

          Actually, once newbies and pupils become specialists by just competing in Div.4 contests and become unrated, if their rating is unreal, they will drop back to pupils after Div.2 contests. And this will not affect high rating users.

          → Reply
          • »
            »
            »
            »
            »
            »
            3 years ago, # ^ |
              Vote: I like it +14 Vote: I do not like it

            It will not affect high rating users, But it made some pupils/newbies' CURRENT RATING unreal.

            CF rating is not only for high rating users

            → Reply
      • »
        »
        »
        »
        3 years ago, # ^ |
          Vote: I like it -6 Vote: I do not like it

        I don't really understand why people think this way... If I'm doing a contest, unless I'm doing it to win (which is unrealistic for my skill level) I do it because I expect to have fun challenging myself.

        Spending half of the contest solving problems that I already know how to solve is the opposite of that and extremely boring. In fact, I think when I was purple and could only solve A and B, contests were more fun as I would quickly reach C and go "oh this is an interesting problem, let's think about it!" (I also disagree with the clarification of such problems as "inaccessible": a specialist solved H in the last global round, for example, and none of the previous problems required specialized knowledge.)

        Speaking of which, can we get div1 rounds with fewer problems so I can start struggling quicker, please? :)

        → Reply
        • »
          »
          »
          »
          »
          3 years ago, # ^ |
            Vote: I like it +18 Vote: I do not like it

          Who’s to say they already know how to solve them? That’s the whole point — they’re in a range where for this user group they may or may not be things they already know; there are merits to both. Either you’re putting into practice your knowledge or you’re learning new material. That means that lots of problems fall precisely into that bracket of “oh this is an interesting problem, let’s think about it” for the target audience of Div 4 contests. 14% of rated candidates scored a full house on the last Div 4 contest. Perhaps that is slightly high but it suggests to me that at least 86% of candidates found something that challenged them, and probably a chunk of those who managed the perfect score too.

          As for a specialist solving H, obviously sometimes anomalous things happen. If you’re judging things on sample sizes of one then I can tell you some other pretty crazy stuff. I’m talking about for the overwhelming majority of people, and I think you know that.

          → Reply
          • »
            »
            »
            »
            »
            »
            3 years ago, # ^ |
              Vote: I like it 0 Vote: I do not like it

            Your response completely misses my point that solving A and B and being stuck on C is better than solving A-E and having little time to try the first difficult problem.

            And if I'm seeing things by your statistics, then on a Div 2 I bet the percentage of contestants that are challenged is closer to 100%, so it's still better. That's ignoring the fact that "not AKing" doesn't equal "challenged", as a lot of recent codeforces contests have a lot of easy problems that you just have to spend time coding. (This is also related to how problem ratings are very noisy as solve count is highly affected by position in a contest.)

            → Reply
            • »
              »
              »
              »
              »
              »
              »
              3 years ago, # ^ |
                Vote: I like it +17 Vote: I do not like it

              My response doesn’t miss that at all. I suggest you reread it, in particular the very first part noting that 1) you don’t speak for other people when you assume they can solve everything comfortably and 2) there are merits both to practising what you know in different contexts and being challenged by what you don’t.

              What your response misses is that being challenged is different to being completely stuck. Staring hopelessly at something you have no chance of solving and waiting for the editorial may be great for you. Others may prefer variety. Why you’re so up in arms about a contest designed to challenge people in a lower rating bracket whilst being accessible enough for them to solve a few problems is beyond me. The Div 1 and 2 contests still exist anyway and are unaffected.

              And finally, had you considered that a very significant number of candidates don’t just breeze through the Div 4 rounds and remain significantly challenged by questions of rating 1300-1400? Given that a large number of the target audience will have rating below 1100 that is obviously going to be the case.

              I find it somewhat bizarre that you, as a red coder, purport to speak for so many in a much lower rating bracket.

              → Reply
        • »
          »
          »
          »
          »
          3 years ago, # ^ |
            Vote: I like it +13 Vote: I do not like it

          Speaking of which, can we get div1 rounds with fewer problems so I can start struggling quicker, please? :)

          Your last round was 2 years ago. You solved 22 problems last year. Something just doesn't add up.

          → Reply
»
3 years ago, # |
  Vote: I like it -51 Vote: I do not like it

Because Div3 is too hard for me.

→ Reply
»
3 years ago, # |
  Vote: I like it +49 Vote: I do not like it

So I can be VIP-tester

→ Reply
»
3 years ago, # |
  Vote: I like it +4 Vote: I do not like it

i also want more div2/div1 round rather than more div3/div4.

→ Reply
»
3 years ago, # |
  Vote: I like it +11 Vote: I do not like it

It's just fun.

→ Reply
»
3 years ago, # |
  Vote: I like it +14 Vote: I do not like it

From the comments so far, it seems that the only one opposing it has a rating of 1400+ (unrated).

As far as the frequency, there have only been two so far (two-year gap), and another one is coming soon.

I think it's pretty early to judge Div. 4 as a whole, as it may change after a few more rounds.

However, I agree with some of the comments that it is perhaps a bit too easy (first few questions), even for newbies that sometimes fail to solve 1-2 problems in Div. 3 (myself).

I think most greens would be able to solve all the current Div. 4 problems, which is strange as often where there is a cut-off, say expert in Div. 3, not all 1600 and below solve everything.

I will end this by saying that I trust and appreciate the efforts of Mike and the problem setters for Div. 4 as I personally enjoy the problems from C onwards as they have the right amount of difficulty for me as it currently stands.

→ Reply
»
3 years ago, # |
  Vote: I like it -39 Vote: I do not like it

Thanks for downvoting my comment. Feel free to downvote more and more. It will only improve my awareness and get me stronger.

→ Reply
»
3 years ago, # |
  Vote: I like it +141 Vote: I do not like it

Why do you mind?

I would recommend those rounds to all the beginners. If you just learned Python or C++, it's a great practice and it exposes you to algorithmic thinking. An average programmer doesn't even know gcd or time complexity. If you want to show them CP, such div4 rounds are a great start.

→ Reply
  • »
    »
    3 years ago, # ^ |
      Vote: I like it +30 Vote: I do not like it

    But isn't that exactly the point of div 3 rounds too?

    → Reply
    • »
      »
      »
      3 years ago, # ^ |
        Vote: I like it +6 Vote: I do not like it

      I remember being newbie level. The division 3 problems were genuinely quite challenging; I could probably solve around 3 of them on a really good day and 1 of them on a bad day. And I had it lucky because I had some past math exposure (if it weren't for my math exposure, I'd probably be able to solve 0).

      I don't think nondiv4 people understand that div3 is actually quite challenging for someone new (like someone who just learned basics of C++ in a uni course, for instance). Many starting programmers don't even know gcd, lcm, bitwise operators, modular arithmetic, etc since many cs course don't teach math.

      → Reply
  • »
    »
    3 years ago, # ^ |
      Vote: I like it -7 Vote: I do not like it

    Div3 can't?

    → Reply
»
3 years ago, # |
  Vote: I like it +17 Vote: I do not like it

I think that Div4 should be prepared from recycled problems in the problem set, for people with rating below 1200. In addition, to make cheating less rewarding, you won't be able to surpass 1300 after a Div4 round. Div4 rounds will be trivial to make and therefore won't interfere with the more important Div1 and combined rounds.

→ Reply
»
3 years ago, # |
  Vote: I like it +5 Vote: I do not like it

I agree with you on this. I feel that div 4 is too easy, and it doesn't give beginners a lot of improvement in their problem solving skills. I think the reason why people like div 4 is because it is for gaining some meaningless points, which I have learned doesn't help at all. Improvement is way more important than some meaningless rating, and eventually rating will go up through practice and contests. Div 3 is way more suitable for improvement at its difficulty.

→ Reply
»
3 years ago, # |
  Vote: I like it +8 Vote: I do not like it

more and more people register new accounts for the purpose of narcissism, and pass all problem in little time.

I think it is not good for newbie.

→ Reply
  • »
    »
    3 years ago, # ^ |
      Vote: I like it +8 Vote: I do not like it

    Yes, and there are also some people teamwork

    → Reply
    • »
      »
      »
      3 years ago, # ^ |
        Vote: I like it +18 Vote: I do not like it

      Ironically, the latest Div.4's rank 1 named teaming_is_unfair.

      And he passed C at 5:37 and H at 5:58.

      → Reply
»
3 years ago, # |
  Vote: I like it -56 Vote: I do not like it

The most appropriate people to say whether or not Div4 is meaningful is NOT you BUT those who are new to CP or who can only solve a few problems in Div3.

If you just want more Div1/2, just say that. If you're worried that Div1/2 will decrease because of Div4, just say that.

Please don't blame those who prepare for Div4. In order to develop the world of CP, I think it is one of the most important things to provide wonderful contests for beginners. I really appreciate the Div4's efforts.

→ Reply
  • »
    »
    3 years ago, # ^ |
      Vote: I like it +36 Vote: I do not like it

    I want to say, div4's rating is UNREAL

    → Reply
    • »
      »
      »
      3 years ago, # ^ |
        Vote: I like it -54 Vote: I do not like it

      I partially agree with you on that point; Div4 has a lot of room for improvement. If that is what you most want to say, I suggest you add it to the beginning of this blog. When I first opened this blog I could only see that you were making fun of Div4.

      But Div4 is just getting started. If you and many others are sincere and constructive, Div4 will gradually improve. I hope so.

      → Reply
      • »
        »
        »
        »
        3 years ago, # ^ |
          Vote: I like it +31 Vote: I do not like it

        But the Div4 in 2020 is suitable, I think current div4 is like to become easier and easier

        → Reply
        • »
          »
          »
          »
          »
          3 years ago, # ^ |
            Vote: I like it -54 Vote: I do not like it

          Yes, I think so. If you have a desire to improve Div4 (and not just to criticize it), I suggest you summarize your views at the beginning of this blog instead of cluttering up the comments section with your important opinions. That is a very good thing.

          → Reply
    • »
      »
      »
      2 years ago, # ^ |
        Vote: I like it +1 Vote: I do not like it

      What makes div2's rating REAL?

      → Reply
»
3 years ago, # |
← Rev. 2   Vote: I like it +9 Vote: I do not like it

I agree. Instead, they should increase the frequency of div3.

→ Reply
»
3 years ago, # |
  Vote: I like it +16 Vote: I do not like it

Imagine div.4 as more like a drilling exercise rather than something for learning new things. greys and greens are most likely very new to competitive programming and still needs more easier problems to get used to typing code and learning patterns of easy problems. Div.3 could do as well but problems rated >1400 would already be too hard for newbies

→ Reply
»
3 years ago, # |
  Vote: I like it +4 Vote: I do not like it

Codeforces became noobforces

→ Reply
»
3 years ago, # |
  Vote: I like it -10 Vote: I do not like it

BTW why doesn't you participate in Div1 with your Lotus account ? (I could easily identify it from the code you submitted)

It is too silly for a Redcoder who don't participate in Div1 to complain about the increase in Div4.

→ Reply
»
3 years ago, # |
  Vote: I like it -18 Vote: I do not like it

Why not?

→ Reply
»
3 years ago, # |
  Vote: I like it -63 Vote: I do not like it

I think it is wise not to trust the upvotes/downvotes results here, as the information is being manipulated by his probably 50+ sub-accounts.

In fact, the comment where I pointed out the existence of his other account had 30+ upvotes yesterday at most, but now it is -7 due to his criminal activity. The remaining 3 comments had a few upvotes yesterday, but are now close to -50. I also received troublesome DMs.

Wise people will be easily convinced that this situation was caused solely by him. It is easy to see how he overreacted to being told the truth.

I'm tired of this and I'm going to have a good time solving problems. Good bye!

→ Reply
  • »
    »
    3 years ago, # ^ |
      Vote: I like it +32 Vote: I do not like it

    sorry, why do you think a normal people have 50 alts?

    → Reply
  • »
    »
    3 years ago, # ^ |
      Vote: I like it +30 Vote: I do not like it

    Getting so many upvotes in a short time is more difficult than getting so many downvotes in a day XD

    → Reply
»
3 years ago, # |
  Vote: I like it -65 Vote: I do not like it

Thanks to the wise people who upvoted my comments. Don't worry, I don't mind being downvoted at all ( no need to reply to me to protect you from their downvotes rain ). It's rather funny because their response is so honest. I am an adult, but they must be children.

So far, I have wondered why Codeforces comments section is unsafe (typically, people with low ratings are downvoted a lot), and now I understand it very well. I now understand that it is almost the same reason why anonymous bulletin board is not safe.
In other words, they are internet trolls.

I will not post any more comments on Codeforces.
See you all again at the contest!

→ Reply
  • »
    »
    3 years ago, # ^ |
      Vote: I like it +19 Vote: I do not like it

    So mature of you.

    → Reply
  • »
    »
    3 years ago, # ^ |
      Vote: I like it +10 Vote: I do not like it

    hah, why you are getting mad? i'm sorry for minding you.:(

    First,this blog is not about alts, it's about div4, why you still talk about downvotes and alts?I think you are angry for getting downvotes,but I didn't do it.

    Then, you don't know CF's vote system, It is about your rating. such as GM's votes value is 10, You saw that you are -50, it maybe only 5 GMs downvoted you.

    If I can control the votes, why it got -56?

    So don't you think you like a boring man who get angry beacuse getting downvotes?

    It is funny.

    → Reply
»
3 years ago, # |
  Vote: I like it -14 Vote: I do not like it

For, newbie like us Div 4 is game changer. Plz stfu

→ Reply